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Originally Posted by boo boo
So what? Is that a reason not to do anything about it at all?
I don't care why we went, I dont agree with the timing or the conditions of the war or how it was executed. But I believe that Saddam should have been dealt with eventually, and who else would have? The UN? Don't make me laugh.
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The citizens of Iraq, they could have revolted. People call for revolution when they're tired of their government. A little revolution now and then is a good thing; the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. But we went in their for our own purposes I highly doubt Bush gave a f
uck, if he did he has quite a few countries to fix, but he won't.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
We went to war with Iraq under false pretenses, this is true. Our main concern was getting Osama Bin Ladin and somehow it changed to Iraq for very superficial reasons. Maybe they didnt have WMDs (though I know for a fact they had chemical weapons at their disposal, which was used on the Kurds during the Iraq-Iran war) but they were in the process of making Nuclear and Biological weapons, it would have taken a long time for them to have become a truly serious threat, but its a good thing we didnt let it get to the state that Iran and North Korea is now, whom we should have dealt with first, and a long time ago I might add.
The main point, regardless of our intentions, deceptions and mistakes. Removing Saddam from power was a very good thing, and while establishing a democracy admist the civil war that has emerged has proven to be a big obstacle, leaving Iraq in its current state would be absolutely insane. It would cause massive devastation to our reputation and it would make matters even worse for Iraqi civilians.
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We don't care about it, we care about the oil. Just look at what happened with Mohammed Mosaddeq, a democratically elected president who came into power after the overthrow of Shah. The US didn't like his policies of nationalizing the oil reserves in his country, so we came through and restored the Shah to power and overthrew his democratical government. After all that oil isn't his right, its ours? We don't like what hes doing with it, so we overthrow it.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
And these are the former kind of Christians I am talking about. They avoid what the bible clearly states, which is that killing human beings and homosexuality are sins.
I haven't read the Koran as a whole, because having read one boring religious text book is bad enough. I still have a fairly good idea of what Muslims generally believe, many of these beliefs arent too different from christians, only their beliefs about capital punishment and sin are much more strict and conservative.
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Yeah but the christians who are opposed to it also probably work on sunday and shave, I think that says alot about how strictly they follow the bible, they still use it to their own needs like most christians do.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
Thats not at all what I said, I'm saying that they have a strong religious bias, and this is what prevents democracy from working in the middle east, and this is a problem we're trying to solve in Iraq.
Muslims in the east have the right to govern themselves, but a lot of them don't know how democracy works, because they were born into theocracy, thats really all they know. And guess what? We're trying to show them how to do it in Iraq. I guess thats a really bad thing we're doing, right?
And lest we forget, Moderates are afraid to speak out on such matters because of the peer pressure they get from extremists. You really need to do your homework if you think the Bush administration is completely responsable for everything that has went wrong in Iraq.
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Iraq was wrong before we went in, but we havn't helped make it better and I don't think were going to make it better. Let them rule how they want to, plenty of nations rule they way they did, we never once stepped in and probably won't unless they have something we want/we feel like taking it over. You can't tell people of certain religious, especially a dominate religions they can't rule because they're biased due to their beliefs, that wouldn't be very fair would it?
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Originally Posted by boo boo
A Christian theocracy would never so bad to the point that they would have their policemen prevent young girls from leaving a burning schoolhouse because they don't have veils on.
Which is the case in Saudi Arabia. Can't you not at least try to see where I'm getting at?
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Because christians are a shining example of valuing life, the crusades? Religion has no place in a position of power, religion can be a positive force in peoples lives, give them something so they can sleep at night but lets look at history, religion as a whole not just a specific one has done more bad than good.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
I see it getting even worse if we leave, because its gotten to the point where they are more at war with each other than with us. And if we leave they will have something new to get pissed off about, and it really will be with us. You expect them to automatically forgive us for invading if we leave? That if we leave its all gonna be strawberries and daisies when it comes to our relations with Iraq?
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No, and even if we do successfully launch a democracy do you think they're going to forgive us for killing as man of them as we did? Nations revolt, i'm sure they would've been happier with a revolution and overthrowing Sadam than a nation coming in unasked and invading and killing.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
What I meant by that was our reputation with them, the extremists. If we leave now it will come back to bite us in the ass, I garantee it.
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I don't think we'll ever have a good reputation with extremists, their books teach them to hate. You know how many islams consider suicide bombing justified? Alot and honestly, I think our reputation with the world is more important.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
Because worsening our reputation with middle eastern countries who are developing nuclear weapons like Iraq and Syria will put even more at risk.
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They don't want us there, other nations didn't either, if we pulled out now, even though its way way way too late and continues to get later at least we can show we're not a bunch of stubborn idiots. Thousands of soldiers dying because Bush is too proud to admit he was wrong is stupid.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
Thats where you are completely wrong, in foreign affairs, reputation is everything. Everything.
Because our reputation influences what other countries think of us, and as a result it influences how these countries will treat us, and thats going to influence how we treat them, etc.
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Yeah but that doesn't change the fact our reputation is terrible right now, Bush has single-handedly turned america into such a terror-obsessed country, with his patriot acts and everything. I'm surprised he doesn't come outright and announce his own SS. I have criticized this a few times, but still I think the fact every band has an anti-bush song says alot, you really can't dispute it anymore, his presidency has been a complete failure.
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Originally Posted by boo boo
Yeah, they're already here.
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I don't understand that, because harboring terrorists would make us a terrorist state by US standards, and we knowingly harbor them, we've even had terrorists work for us, hell we've even supported them remember Nicaraugua? In 1985, Ronald Regan declared Nicaragua an imminent threat to US safety. Nicaragua, a dirt poor Latin American country with no unconventional weaponry, was an IMMINENT THREAT to the greatest military force in history. This is what Ronald claimed. Why? Why were they such a big threat? Because they attempted to establish a democratic government WITHOUT the help of the United States. The Sandistinis were a democratically elected government who received no support from the United States, but DID allow Cuban contractors to build air fields in their country. Well, we can't have that. A country becoming democratic without the US's help? That's bad business, it sets an example for other countries. "Hey, we can become free and truly democratic without having the United States pulling the strings". So what did Ronnie do about this? Well, naturally, he armed terrorists to commit horrible atrocities against civilians in favor of the Sandistinis. In fact, you can read accounts of children who watched their mothers have their breasts cut off. Watched their fathers be lined up and executed. Horrible atrocities, all sponsored by your friendly neighborhood United States. This actually caused a big fuss in the 80's because, the money that Ronald Regan was giving to the Contas (the terrorists) was coming from the profit which his administration made by ILLEGALLY selling weapons to Iran. It is commonly referred to as the Iran-Contra Affair. While the hearings were taking place to see who was in the wrong during these sales and fundings, good old Oliver North was in his office shredding classified documents which undoubtedly incriminated the president, as well as himself and many others. Oh yeah, what does Oliver North do nowadays? He hosts a TV show on FAUX News of course. The United States has no interest in bringing democracy to anyone, that is a total facade. It appeals to patriotic Americans with a hard on for the word democracy. We crush democracies, we don't support them. I mean I guess its not surprising, since the United States Government is probably one of the most evil organizations on the planet as far as killing people, and this country has become so greedy and tried to hide it under their 'war against terror' and everything which are just fronts for our own needs.