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Zum Henker Defätist!!
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 48,199
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Originally Posted by Trollheart
Obviously, there's no way to answer that definitively, since it's as much a matter of taste and perspective as it is of facts and figures. But science has helped me work out which was the better of the two movies about Christ's life, which album of Black Sabbath's was better and recently, which veriosn of “A Christmas carol” deserved the title of Best Ever Scrooge.
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If by "science" you mean arbitrary, unnuanced, and nonsensical criteria, then yes, it is very scientific. I shall now show to all why you are an absurd little man.
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What about service time? Well, Let’s see.
Spoiler for .:
Kirk: Served as captain of the Enterprise for three years (the mission is described as a five-year one, and may have been, but we can only count the timeline we witnessed), from 1966-69, after which the crew appeared in six movies from 1979 to 1991, so that makes 3+11=14 years.
Picard: Captained NCC-1701D through seven seasons from 1987-94, and then four films from 1994-2002. That’s a total of 7+7=14 years. Hey! Exactly the same!
Now, let’s take into account Kirk’s guesting in “Generations” (1994). Does that change things? Well not really as Kirk was retired --- indeed, presumed dead in his timeline --- at teh time, and brought forward to Picard’s time, so the timelines are getting a little messy here. It’s the same as if he does reprise his role in the new Star Trek reboot movie: I just think it confuses things too much. So this is a draw then, and the scores remain at 1-1.
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You're giving the same weight to Kirk's appearances in the movies as Picard's appearances on the show? How many more hours of screen time did Picard have?
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Ships destroyed? Each captain has wrecked his own ship, so where does that leave us? Let’s look into this in a bit more detail. What? Yes, we must.
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Kirk: Destroyed the original Enterprise in order to stop her from falling into Klingon hands and also to take out almost all of his enemies at the time. Plus the ship was in a bad way and would not have lasted any protracted battle. The Klingon ship was damaged too, but not as badly as Enterprise, so it seems to have been the correct decision.
Picard: Allowed a woman to drive in Generations and paid the price!  Seriously, the stardrive section was destroyed by a warp core breach initiated by the Duras Sisters and the saucer section was hit by the shockwave and crashed. So ended NCC-1701D.
Technically, though, it could be argued that he destroyed NCC-1701C too, when he ordered it back through the rift in “Yesterday’s Enterprise”. Yeah, but then what about the million other versions of the ship that appeared through the rent in space/time? No, I don’t think we can count that, plus Picard was not in charge of that ship, so it was really up to her own captain as to whether he wished to go back and set history straight.
So we have two ships, each destroyed, one by the captain’s hand as a final “f uck you” to the Klingons, and one destroyed by a combination of the Klingons and Deanna’s woeful driving. Think on balance, Kirk gets this one. NCC-1701 was destroyed intentionally, and with a clear purpose and a sense of sacrifice, while NCC-1701D was really just taken down in battle. Have to give this one to Kirk.
2-1 to Kirk then.
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So you're going to count the time that Picard's Enterprise was destroyed while he was not in command against him? That's bull****.
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How about personality?
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Kirk: Had an easygoing, friendly way of commanding; friends with his crew, approachable, would go drinkign with them as we saw in “Wolf in the fold”, where other such “nights out with the boys” were alluded to. Smiled a lot. Took discipline seriously but often did so with a heavy heart. Although everyone respected Kirk, he seems like the kind of guy you’d enjoy sharing a beer with, and wouldn’t be so stuck up that he would only mix with his officers.
Picard: Very aloof and generally unsmiling, rigid and uptight. Never joined in on the poker sessions on the ship, not until the finale, and indeed the final scene of that. Can’t recall him ever going for a drink (other than once, in “Allegiances”, but that time it wasn’t him but an alien taking his form). Did attend recitals and concerts on the ship but more as a matter of protocol and duty than actual enjoyment. Those who are close to him know and trust him, but I get the feeling that most of the rest of the crew hardly know him at all, and I doubt he makes it his business to even know their names. Then again, he does allow “Captain Picard Day” although he doesn’t get on with children, but that’s again more a matter of doing something because he has to than that he wants to.
If you’re looking for a captain who’s just one of the guys but still has the air of command about him and knows how to lead, and inspire loyalty, I think that has to be Kirk.
So that’s 3-1 to Kirk.
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Just because Picard was more professional he was a worse captain? Perhaps he just understood that no matter how close the commander is with his crew, he is still their commander and not "one of the boys". And assuming that he doesn't care to know his crew's names is just unfair speculation.
Not to mention that your assertion that Picard doesn't inspire loyalty is clearly erroneous. Consider First Contact, when Warf -- a ****ing Klingon -- allowed Picard to disrespect him in a moment of stress. "Were you any other man I would kill you where you stand!" Any captain who can inspire that kind of loyalty in a Klingon is worthy of respect of the highest order.
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Stickler for the rules?
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Kirk has been known to break the rules on plenty of occasions, when the situaton warranted it, and though Picard has taken part in covert operations (as has Kirk) he generally tends to stick fairly rigidly to the regulations, quoting article this and directive that, so it would certainly seem that Kirk is the one more ready to bend or even break the rules if needed.
But before we award this round to him, let’s consider if this is a good thing. If you’re prepared to break the rules once, you’re certainly going to do it twice, and where then do you draw the line? Do regulations after a while just become something you need to find a way around, at which point they cease being regulations at all? And as for Picard, if you refuse to break the rules on any grounds --- even personal --- does that make you a better or worse captain?
I’d have to say that I would prefer a captain who would be willing to think on his feet and assess the situation as it developed, without having to be bound by the strictures of the regulations all the time. So again I feel Kirk wins this round.
4-1 to Kirk.
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I won't even dignify implying that Picard can't or won't "think on his feet" with a response.
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Romance?
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Kirk’s ladyfriends are spread (sorry) far and wide across the galaxy, some from his past, some picked up on missions, some used to get an advantage over an enemy. Kirk is not at all averse to using a woman to get what he wants, and has the charm and good looks to make that happen. He’s also very persuasive, and women of course are drawn to power. Picard? He’s had the odd romantic fling but never anything serious, unless you count his feelings for Beverly Crusher, but then he never acted on those. Or did he? In the final episode of TNG we see a future wherein he has married her. But is this an actual future or a possible one? I think we can take it that it is the actual one, so there’s some romance there. Kirk never gets married, not even in the movies, though he does have a son, as we see in “The Wrath of Khan”.
Kirk is the adventurer, the action man, the romantic and the smoothy when he needs to be, whereas Picard is more intellectual, preferring women who he can relate to on his own level, thoguh Vash is certainly a woman Kirk might have been expected to pursue. In many ways, she’s the perfect mate for Picard, but she doesn’t want to settle down and can’t stand the discipline of the ship so their relationship, were there to be one, is doomed from the start. When he is in fact matched with his perfect mate, in the episode of the same name, Picard’s honour and sense of duty and responsibility, to say nothing of his moral code, will not allow him to be with the woman he is clearly meant to be with, as she is promised to another.
And yet, both men put their career above thier love lives. Kirk left Carol Marcus because he wanted to be in command of the Enterprise, while Picard seems married to his ship. In terms of being a “galactic lothario” though, we think more in the direction of Kirk than Picard, so once again he gets the round.
5-1 to Kirk.
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Irrelevant nonsense. What do their sex lives have to do with their abilities as captains. If anything this again speaks to Picard's professionalism. I would much rather serve under a captain who wasn't constantly thinking with his dick.
It's idiotic to have a captain needlessly endanger himself when he can delegate the task to more qualified men. It's absurd to think that Kirk would be more capable of dealing with a ground mission than a specially trained unit dedicated to away team missions.
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Turncoat?
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Has either captain ever fought against, or been forced to fight against, his own people?
Picard is the obvious example here, when he is assimilated by the Borg and turned into Locutus of Borg, forced to direct the battle of Wolf 359, a massive defeat for Starfleet. He also takes up arms against Starfleet in Insurrection, the ninth Trek movie, for a cause he believes in.
Kirk takes the Enterprise, against Starfleet orders, in The search for Spock, in order to try to help his best friend find peace, and for his actions is busted down from admiral to captain.
But I think Picard aces this one; so for once the round is his.
6-2 to Kirk.
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What does all of this bull**** even mean?
More irrelevant nonsense.
To my knowledge, both were captains of the biggest and most advanced ships of their time. Clearly both were considered to be the most capable men for the job, so comparing crew numbers when a ship the size of Picard's Enterprise didn't even exist in Kirk's time is bull****.
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Decorations
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No, not those things you just got through taking off your Christmas tree two months ago! I’m talking about medals here, citations, commendations. Which of our captains has won the most honours during his career?
Kirk: Starfleet Silver Palm, Starfleet Medal of Honour, Starfleet Citation for Conspicuous Gallantry, Starfleet Award for Valour, Prentares Ribbon of Commendation, Palm Leaf of Axanar Peace Mission, Karagite Order of Heroism, Grankite Order of Tactics. That makes seven.
Picard: I've looked, and I'm sure he has been decorated, but you know, I can't find a record of a single one. So we have to award this to the ribbons-and-discs heavy Kirk.
7-4 to Kirk
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WTF is this ****? You're giving Kirk a win when you don't even know how many awards the other has? Clearly this category should be considered inconclusive.
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Yeah, but do you have your own office?
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Well, Kirk and Picard spend most of their time on the bridge, naturally, but when he wants to relax Kirk goes to his quarters, which are seldom seen and really nothing more or less any different than other crewmembers. Few people visit him here, unlike Picard, who has the Ready Room just off the bridge, where he can conduct business that is not for general bridge consumption, chew officers out, give secret orders or whatever he wants to do in private. He also has his own quarters, so Picard wins this one by a country mile.
7-6 to Kirk
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And the irrelevant nonsense train keeps a-rollin'.
I might give it to Kirk, but I think you're misreading here. Picard got hurt in a bar fight, which is awesome, whereas Kirk got a bridge dropped on him. One of the most iconic fictional characters in history died because of rickety bridge + gravity. Lame.
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Willingness to put his people in harm’s way
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Red shirts count. Kirk's constant loss of men can be seen as incompetence.
What on Vulcan does this have to do with either of their abilities as captains?
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Battles lost
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Just as important as battles won are those where, with the odds stacked against him, a canny captain can see the value in retreat or regrouping. Certainly the biggest and most public defeat Starfleet ever suffered was at Wolf 359, but Picard was not working for them at the time. In fact, technically he won that engagement for the Borg, though of course he would rather not claim that particular own goal. He did surrender on the Enterprise’s maiden voyage though, and when they originally encountered the Borg in “Hide and Q” he had to go running to Q to save them, so that’s certainly a battle lost.
Kirk lost the battle against Khan and the Reliant initially, but he gave his opponent a bloody nose before he had to retreat, and in the rematch although Enterprise was badly damaged he came out victorious. Not so when he went up against Kruge: he was defeated then, though turned it into a kind of pyrrhic victory by using his dying ship as a weapon against the victorious Klingons.
I think in this case Picard seems to have lost more battles so Kirk takes this round, and again it’s all square.
9-9
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Garbage. Picard was put in an unwinnable situation by an omnipotent being. That doesn't count as he could have done nothing to alter the outcome. And don't bring up the Kobayashi Maru thing, because Kirk cheated.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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