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Originally Posted by RVCA
It looks as though you're trying to keep religion out of this thread Jackhammer, and I respect that, however I feel obligated to respond to crukster at least once.
I believe Carl Sagan has put it most eloquently:
"If the general picture, however, of a big bang followed by an expanding universe is correct, what happened before that? Was the universe devoid of all matter and then the matter somehow, suddenly created? How did that happen? In many cultures the customary answer is that a god or gods created the universe out of nothing. But if we wish to pursue this question courageously, we must of course ask the next question: where did god come from? If we decide that this is an unanswerable question, why not save a step and conclude that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question? Or if we say that god always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe always existed?"
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Well this is really a matter of reassessing the question of what God is.
Set aside Bible definition and all mainstream religious definition of God for a moment, and all the agenda that comes with it. Look at God as an unbiased, uncaring, unloving force of creation - the point of origin. Whatever that may be.
It's a very interesting and very valid question to say, well - what is the point of origin's, point of origin? How did it come to be?
Either it always existed, in some very basic form, and it set into motion all later events i.e. the act of creation and the act of creating the Universe etc. could be considerd "the hand of God" which have spun outward from one point of origin that always was and always shall exist.
OR, the point of origin of our Universe, comes from another "universe", which is not bound by our rules and laws of physics and is essentially unable to interact with our Universe save for that first act of creation
I.e. same as how, sperm fertilizes an egg, baby is conceived and the baby grows. The baby can never go back to being a sperm or an egg.
If it is the second, if, we come from some other realm, then of course you still have the question - where did THAT realm come from? And so on and so on and so forth.
Which again in my belief leads back to the first answer.
No matter how many multitude layers of answer you have, no matter how long the chain is, it still started from nothing/something.
There's a big difference between that and the Universe just springing up out of nothing.
But for me this is where my mind hits a wall. At it's very basic level...all existence... either conclusion is almost impossible to comprehend - either there was nothing, and something just came out of nowhere. Or something just always was.
That's why I think these two forces are two forces that always have been, I think the Universe, (or our Universe anyway) works in duality. And we exist, simply because it is plausible for us to exist.
This is of course a very crude definition and is influenced by my own dumb ape mind being unable to comprehend the ideas. But that's something I'll work on.
It is ignorant to "save a step" and call that the Universe. It ignores the possibility of what's beyond it.
Thus the idea of God, in my belief. Eternal growth, eternal question. etc
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Should add that the existence of big bang background radiation was predicted/hypothesized first as a conclusion based on the big bang theory, then observed and measured after.
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There is another theory about that.
There are two theories about gravity. One is that it's a static "consequential" force, a result of objects trying to keep a straight line of momentum across the curvature of space time.
The second is that it's dynamic, and a force in and of itself. And there are these things called gravitons, I wouldnt wanna misinform, but basically the theory here is gravity works because of gravitons and lack of gravitons, something like that; like a push and pull. These gravitons pass on a lot of heat and energy to masses. Masses are drawn to one another to shield from graviton flow. And the background microwave radiation of the Universe is basically a result of all this graviton activity.