Marte Deborah Dalelv Rape Incident

hip hop bunny hop · 08-03-2013, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

It's still gender inequality, the cultural difference simply means that they don't necessarily see a problem with gender inequality. This seems like an argument in semantics. It's like saying that America wasn't racist until it started proclaiming to value racial equality.

Firstly, inequality (in this case a society stating that the sexes are not interchangeable) between the sexes is not synonymous with misogyny. Secondly, notions of equality between the sexes is radically different from equality between the races because of the reality of distinct biological differences between the sexes. Thirdly, how a society such as the U.A.E. has responded to these differences was not with the intent to harm women but, rather, their response was to help them - to claim these laws are hateful just because they involve a different conception of sexes than that which dominates in the West is bizarre.

If we wanted to have a serious discussion about quality of life for women in the U.A.E., it would not revolve around the singular experience of a singular European woman there.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 08-04-2013, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

Firstly, inequality (in this case a society stating that the sexes are not interchangeable) between the sexes is not synonymous with misogyny. Secondly, notions of equality between the sexes is radically different from equality between the races because of the reality of distinct biological differences between the sexes.

What's your point? That because gender is a more rigidly defined biological concept than race, sexism is valid while racism isn't?

There are obviously biological differences between men and women, but they're not the kind of differences you'd need to justify treating women as second class citizens. That is based not on biology but on an outdated (and misogynist) conception of women as being less capable, trustworthy, intelligent, etc.

Quote:

Thirdly, how a society such as the U.A.E. has responded to these differences was not with the intent to harm women but, rather, their response was to help them - to claim these laws are hateful just because they involve a different conception of sexes than that which dominates in the West is bizarre.

No, what's bizarre is suggesting that a law stating a woman must have 4 adult male witnesses to corroborate a rape and get her out of jail is somehow designed to help women.

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 08-04-2013, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

What's your point? That because gender is a more rigidly defined biological concept than race, sexism is valid while racism isn't?

There are obviously biological differences between men and women, but they're not the kind of differences you'd need to justify treating women as second class citizens. That is based not on biology but on an outdated (and misogynist) conception of women as being less capable, trustworthy, intelligent, etc.
No, what's bizarre is suggesting that a law stating a woman must have 4 adult male witnesses to corroborate a rape and get her out of jail is somehow designed to help women.

Gender is a social construct, not a biological fact.

Or to simplify:
Sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears.

Guybrush · 08-04-2013, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sansa Stark

Gender is a social construct, not a biological fact.

Or to simplify:
Sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears.

That's your opinion, I guess.

By the way, how would you tell the gender of a dog or a salmon? Or someone who was unconscious?

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 08-04-2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

That's your opinion, I guess.

By the way, how would you tell the gender of a dog or a salmon?

Lol that's my opinion.....wow tore you are really going hard on this, aren't you?
I even made it easy for you to understand yet you still can't grasp it. Gender is a socially constructed thing, it is not the same as biological sex. The fact that you're even patronising me, a trans* person, on gender is absolutely laughable, because you know, you're erasing my identity which is not your right. I myself, have no gender. How is this possible? IDFK MAYBE BECAUSE GENDER IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.

Do you know anything at all about gender identity or are you just pulling this out of your ass?

What is the difference between sex and gender?

Quote:

What is the difference between sex and gender?
Sex = male and female

Gender = masculine and feminine

So in essence:

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

So while your sex as male or female is a biological fact that is the same in any culture, what that sex means in terms of your gender role as a 'man' or a 'woman' in society can be quite different cross culturally. These 'gender roles' have an impact on the health of the individual.

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics. To summarise:

'man' = male sex+ masculine social role

(a 'real man', 'masculine' or 'manly')

'woman' = female sex + feminine social role

(a 'real woman', 'feminine' or 'womanly')

By even saying that there is no difference between gender and sex is a microaggression, so get out of here with that gross shit.

Also pertaining to your edit: why the **** would I want to know the sex of someone who is unconscious? That is super rapey and I would not sexually assault someone out of curiosity of their sex. That's disgusting to even think about probing someone without their consent.

djchameleon · 08-04-2013, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

That's your opinion, I guess.

By the way, how would you tell the gender of a dog or a salmon? Or someone who was unconscious?

What is this? don't you have a background in biology or something similar?

Guybrush · 08-04-2013, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sansa Stark

Lol that's my opinion.....wow tore you are really going hard on this, aren't you?
I even made it easy for you to understand yet you still can't grasp it. Gender is a socially constructed thing, it is not the same as biological sex. The fact that you're even patronising me, a trans* person, on gender is absolutely laughable, because you know, you're erasing my identity which is not your right. I myself, have no gender. How is this possible? IDFK MAYBE BECAUSE GENDER IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.

Do you know anything at all about gender identity or are you just pulling this out of your ass?

JWK is making a point relating to the biological differences between sexes and you respond with some post about gender identity. Which has no relevance to his argument.

Do you get the point now?

edit :

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

What is this? don't you have a background in biology or something similar?

I think you're missing something here

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 08-04-2013, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sansa Stark

Gender is a social construct, not a biological fact.

Or to simplify:
Sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears.

Then I meant sex, not gender.

Guybrush · 08-04-2013, 05:25 PM

For the record :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Gender is the range of physical, mental, and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, the term may refer to biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures or social roles (as in gender roles), or gender identity.

In other words, no inappropriate use of the word "gender" has taken place as far as I know. If Sansa has a more narrow definition that she personally uses, she should do so without derailing the thread by abrasively trying to correct others at every opportune moment.

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 08-04-2013, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

Then I meant sex, not gender.

K, thanks for clarifying

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

For the record :

In other words, no inappropriate use of the word "gender" has taken place as far as I know. If Sansa has a more narrow definition that she personally uses, she should do so without derailing the thread by abrasively trying to correct others at every opportune moment.

Cry more white cishet male tears pls
it is relevant to the thread because esp of what hhbh is talking about, forcing our gender ideas onto the East.